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View Full Version : "Race Rollers" are the end of the hobby



rccardude04
08-11-2007, 03:56 AM
Alright, this may be a bit of a rant but I'm gonna do it anyway to see what kind of replies I get...
I sent an E-Mail to Associated about why they only have a roller version of the FT RC8 planned...
"The answers plain and simple is that people nowadays are lazy and want
everything done for them. The days of building kits is coming to an end.
Kits do not pay the bills RTR's do and by a HUGE margin. I know how you
feel because i love to build my cars as well. If it hasn't happened yet
expect all major manufacturers to stat doing this as well even Losi."
Also, I asked why they don't at least offer a kit along with it for those of us who want actual quality?
"We would [offer kits] but the demand from the distributors [for kits] is not there."

What this says to me is that the distributors (mainly Horizon Hobby, probably Great Planes to some extent) are deciding for us that kits are obsolete. The other day, while helping a customer finish up an 8ight-T "race roller," we came across almost every screw into plastic being loose, with the exception of a screw on a stone guard that was stripped out. The shocks, while assembled decent, don't have the right oil for our track. Those of us who buy these things and actually care about quality will wind up having to tear down shocks and diffs to replace the fluids with the proper viscosities, as well as potentially having to replace plastics that haven't even been run because somebody overtightened it at the factory.
It's understandable if some people are lazy. Offer both, that's okay. But not even offering a kit? Come on people. Get your crap together. This hobby is about to be in the gutter if we're not careful.
Is it easier to get into the hobby now than ever before? Yes. That's great. Don't stop. But don't go off forcing those of us who are in it for the actual hobby itself to settle for the mainstream crap they're trying to sell us.
[\rant]
-Eric

zueslilbuddy
08-11-2007, 09:55 AM
I agree.
I have 2 T-maxx's and i built them they wernt kits.
I bought every part and built them.
I dont see why they couldnt offer a kit at a little lower price since the labor of assembling them(wrong) wouldnt be there.
When they assemble them at the factory they are a kit rite.
Why cant they just throw all the parts in a box still on the trees and let us assemble them.
You'd think it would be a little cheaper for us and it lets us know its rite without having to get it, and take it apart to make sure its rite.
Some here have said well the guy that does the shocks and diffs knows what he's doing better than we do, bull pucky they do, just cause they do it all day long doesnt meen they are doing it rite or even give a crap if it is rite.
I meen just cause they work for traxxas, tamiya, ae, ect.ect.ect doesnt meen they are into RC its just a job to them.
Ever heard ''dont buy anything made on monday or friday'' i really think it applys to RC in a big way.
Just my $0.02

ritchies rc10gt
08-11-2007, 10:08 AM
well RTRs are good for the hobby cuz they get people started.but i do agree that kits do need to be offered as welli started with a RTR nitro rush and RC10GT.got my FT NTC3 as a kit and had alot of fun building it.i had a tamiya king hauler and trailer kits.the king hauler took me 3 days to build but it was a blast to build it.

but people are lazy.they would rather have everything done for them than to do it themselves.hell i have a hard time find my favorite sneakers in stores cuz everything is slip ons now.i dont want freeking slip on sneakers.i wanna tie my own damn shoes!!!!:mad:

marca
08-11-2007, 10:17 AM
well sorry ritchies with all the respect i would have to disagree with you there. i find that RTR aren't really good for beginners because if they do get an RTR to start off they will have no clue how it works because they didnt put it together. so in teh end they will just mess everything up and get fet up and quit the hobby(not trying to start a fight here)

I built one kit so far ir was my first rc ( df-03) and had so much fun in doing so. but now that im getting a nitro i kind of have to go RTR because of the price. I just cant afford a Kit thats why every company should make different level of kits in terms of quality of parts used.

AKASHA
08-11-2007, 10:26 AM
Any of you think of warranty issues that might arise of someone trying to put together a kit for the first time that has no background with r/c, mechanics, or modeling in general, just because the sticker price was cheaper so they could afford that gallon of fuel to go with it? I personally would be all for a kit version of ANYTHING, hell when I first received my revo (first nitro) the first thing I did was tear it down completely. I have to know how it works, why this makes that go round and round, however that is my personality and interest.

rccardude04
08-11-2007, 10:32 AM
Personally, I think RTRs are cool for getting people into the hobby. They may not be "hobbyists" at first, but it lets them try it without getting in really deep right away.
It's just all these race level vehicles that have always been kits (for good reason) are becoming basically RTRs. You'd be hard pressed to go to a track, find all the guys with 8ight-T rollers, and find one who didn't take at least something apart to "fix" it. They're not letting us be lazy. They're making it more difficult.
-Eric

marca
08-11-2007, 10:34 AM
this could gt really intresting keep them coming.

MattHiggins
08-11-2007, 10:57 AM
First as soon as the flaming starts, this thread ends.

And since you've been warned, if you flame another member or a company, you will be banned.

If you express your opinions (and that's all they are) in a mature manner, this thread can stay open.

My question is if more people want RTRs and race rollers, why is it bad for the hobby? What you're really saying is that RTRs and race rollers are bad for how you see the hobby. Did Lipton ruin ice tea when they released instant ice tea mix? I'm sure a few purists think so, but millions and millions of people drink powered ice tea. If you ever own a company I highly advice giving people what they want not what a vocal minority says you should offer. The bottom line is that there will always be kits. Pre-assembled die cast models didn't spell the ruin for plastic kits. Millions of more people want die-cast over plastic kits, but plastic kits continue to be offered. So, while more people might want RTRs and race rollers, you'll still be able to get plenty of kits.

GT Freak
08-11-2007, 11:00 AM
Well, now the only "king of kits" out is TAMIYA!

marca
08-11-2007, 11:03 AM
Well, now the only "king of kits" out is TAMIYA!

yeah i would say that has to be true but i also like the way Hpi has been offering both kits and rtr's.

fuzzychickens
08-11-2007, 11:14 AM
"We would [offer kits] but the demand from the distributors [for kits] is not there."

Blame the distributors. They apparently don't care enough about people who like to build their own cars.

pimpride
08-11-2007, 11:52 AM
Yeah, there's still lots of kits. But there's becoming less and less by the day. I'm still not saying they shoudlnt' be offered. Just don't make it the only option :)

Yeah... this is rccardude04... at work. pimpride left himself logged in and I'm not smart enough to check. lol.
-Eric

ritchies rc10gt
08-11-2007, 12:13 PM
well sorry ritchies with all the respect i would have to disagree with you there. i find that RTR aren't really good for beginners because if they do get an RTR to start off they will have no clue how it works because they didnt put it together. so in teh end they will just mess everything up and get fet up and quit the hobby(not trying to start a fight here)

.

i will agree with you to a point.RTRs arent for everybody.but for those that do want to get into the hobby and dont have much to spend they are great.i will agree that they wont get to "know"thier car unless they built it themselves.people with some mechanical knoweledge(sp?) would be good with a RTR as they have some understanding of how things work,like i do.they would also be more prone to buying a kit though cuz they will want to build it and see how it works.but a person that has no mechanical knowledge whatsoever will get frustrated whether they bought a kit and built it or bought a RTR.either way they will have to take it apart and rebuild it at some point.

myself i could go either way,kit or RTR.in my case im gonna rip it apart at some point anyways,its in my nature to rip things apart and see what makes it tick :D

ritchies rc10gt
08-11-2007, 12:17 PM
First as soon as the flaming starts, this thread ends.

And since you've been warned, if you flame another member or a company, you will be banned.

If you express your opinions (and that's all they are) in a mature manner, this thread can stay open.

My question is if more people want RTRs and race rollers, why is it bad for the hobby? What you're really saying is that RTRs and race rollers are bad for how you see the hobby. Did Lipton ruin ice tea when they released instant ice tea mix? I'm sure a few purists think so, but millions and millions of people drink powered ice tea. If you ever own a company I highly advice giving people what they want not what a vocal minority says you should offer. The bottom line is that there will always be kits. Pre-assembled die cast models didn't spell the ruin for plastic kits. Millions of more people want die-cast over plastic kits, but plastic kits continue to be offered. So, while more people might want RTRs and race rollers, you'll still be able to get plenty of kits.

HMMM i mustve missed something.

but anyways i dont see it as "bad per say but its not good if every car comes as RTR or a roller and no kits to build.i enjoy building them but also just want to buy it,run it,kill and then rebuild it to start over again but make it better in the process.

Freedom
08-11-2007, 12:17 PM
I wish there were more kits as well, it can save us money.

ritchies rc10gt
08-11-2007, 12:21 PM
I built one kit so far ir was my first rc ( df-03) and had so much fun in doing so. but now that im getting a nitro i kind of have to go RTR because of the price. I just cant afford a Kit thats why every company should make different level of kits in terms of quality of parts used.

dont know if you want on or off road but look into an HPI savage kit.the SS kits come with the engine and stuff,only thing you need of your own is the radio and servos.your gonna upgrade the radio anyways.doesnt cost much more than a RTR savage.dont know if there are any other kits like this but its a suggestion for you.

atm92484_3
08-11-2007, 12:30 PM
I wouldn't say end of the hobby but its another thing thats going to make this hobby less interesting in my eyes since I love building. I haven't touched an RC car in over 3 years due to school, life, and other stuff, but even back then, I was beginning to lose interest because the different products just weren't coming out at the rate they used to be.

It seems like for the first 5 years I was in this hobby (1998-2003), there were a ton of different and original products either coming out or available. O.S. made a lay-down 2 stroke car engine along with several car 4 strokes (well they were available in the U.S.), there weren't as many 1/8 buggies but the ones out were all kits, HPI had HPI challenges where a whole slew of stock/modified RS4's and RS4-2's would tear up parking lots for 3 weekends during the summer across the U.S. (Kyosho and Tamiya had a similar series), everyone and their brother hadn't thrown their hat into the monster truck ring, HPI took a shot at the 1/10 4wd stadium truck market with the NMT, Bolink was still kicking, nitro pan cars existed along with "direct drive" electric touring cars, and everything in general didn't fit into a certain "mold". I know the things that are not around now is a result of them not being profitable, but it still kind of stinks to not see new and original things hitting the market now adays and everything converging into a mold.

I think race cars becoming ARR's is one more step into a product line fitting this "mold". For race cars, theres obviously a reason for the mold since its whats competitive, but for the bashers that most people have, it would be nice for different cars to start emerging again.

I suppose its more profitable for companies since they aren't turning away people afraid to build, but at the same time, if you're racing, you should know how to tear the car down regardless or else you shouldn't be at the track.

You could easily say the 1/8 buggies of 2007 are vastly superior to those of 1999 (and no one would argue), but at the same time, is the performance really that much better for the weekend racer? There are defiently more top tier buggies out there now, but I find it hard to believe there is honestly that big of a difference in performance between say an AE, Losi, Kyosho, and Mugen buggy; again, its more of a similar product in my book with slight differences from different companies.

Sure its more profitable, but it just seems like this hobby is leveling off in terms of innovation. Part of it is probably due to companies running out of new stuff to do. I'm not going to say I'm not sad to see kits go, but companies have to make what sells. I can tell you from working in a hobby shop though highschool, its tough to convince people to buy kits when theres a RTR on the shelf that appears to be pretty similar (if not better equipped) and for less than half of the price to get running; its not my cup of tea, but its what sells.

marca
08-11-2007, 12:33 PM
dont know if you want on or off road but look into an HPI savage kit.the SS kits come with the engine and stuff,only thing you need of your own is the radio and servos.your gonna upgrade the radio anyways.doesnt cost much more than a RTR savage.dont know if there are any other kits like this but its a suggestion for you.

well i was looking into getting a truggy. in hpi's case the hellfire already comes with the k4.6 but no pipe. so i would need a pipe, radio, battery and field equipment. comes out to about 850 $ American plus tax. its alot of money for me. I'm only 15 working a summer job. but thanks anyway

Grant Tokumi
08-11-2007, 12:46 PM
myself i could go either way,kit or RTR.in my case im gonna rip it apart at some point anyways,its in my nature to rip things apart and see what makes it tick
I agree with you there. I like building kits as well, but if an RTR was $100 cheaper than a kit, I'd get the RTR.


I wish there were more kits as well, it can save us money.
I'm not so sure that is true....

marca
08-11-2007, 12:56 PM
I'm not so sure that is true....[/QUOTE]

When i first read what he said i was like HUH?!??!. but now i think i got it. what he means is that some of use already have like 3 radios spare servos and sometimes engines lying around. so why pay for and RTR where you get another radio you won't use. Instead just buy a kit and put in the spare parts.

ritchies rc10gt
08-11-2007, 01:02 PM
well i was looking into getting a truggy. in hpi's case the hellfire already comes with the k4.6 but no pipe. so i would need a pipe, radio, battery and field equipment. comes out to about 850 $ American plus tax. its alot of money for me. I'm only 15 working a summer job. but thanks anyway


just figured id through an option out there for ya.

Grant Tokumi
08-11-2007, 01:07 PM
Even if I don't agree with everything mentioned here, I think this is a very good post. It makes the point in a civil and mature manner.

I personally think the innovation that has come along with the RTR surge (related or not) is an obvious improvement in durability and reliability of the vehicles. You didn't see Clodbusters and Kyosho Burns doing backflips and driving away..... :)

I wouldn't say end of the hobby but its another thing thats going to make this hobby less interesting in my eyes since I love building. I haven't touched an RC car in over 3 years due to school, life, and other stuff, but even back then, I was beginning to lose interest because the different products just weren't coming out at the rate they used to be.

It seems like for the first 5 years I was in this hobby (1998-2003), there were a ton of different and original products either coming out or available. O.S. made a lay-down 2 stroke car engine along with several car 4 strokes (well they were available in the U.S.), there weren't as many 1/8 buggies but the ones out were all kits, HPI had HPI challenges where a whole slew of stock/modified RS4's and RS4-2's would tear up parking lots for 3 weekends during the summer across the U.S. (Kyosho and Tamiya had a similar series), everyone and their brother hadn't thrown their hat into the monster truck ring, HPI took a shot at the 1/10 4wd stadium truck market with the NMT, Bolink was still kicking, nitro pan cars existed along with "direct drive" electric touring cars, and everything in general didn't fit into a certain "mold". I know the things that are not around now is a result of them not being profitable, but it still kind of stinks to not see new and original things hitting the market now adays and everything converging into a mold.

I think race cars becoming ARR's is one more step into a product line fitting this "mold". For race cars, theres obviously a reason for the mold since its whats competitive, but for the bashers that most people have, it would be nice for different cars to start emerging again.

I suppose its more profitable for companies since they aren't turning away people afraid to build, but at the same time, if you're racing, you should know how to tear the car down regardless or else you shouldn't be at the track.

You could easily say the 1/8 buggies of 2007 are vastly superior to those of 1999 (and no one would argue), but at the same time, is the performance really that much better for the weekend racer? There are defiently more top tier buggies out there now, but I find it hard to believe there is honestly that big of a difference in performance between say an AE, Losi, Kyosho, and Mugen buggy; again, its more of a similar product in my book with slight differences from different companies.

Sure its more profitable, but it just seems like this hobby is leveling off in terms of innovation. Part of it is probably due to companies running out of new stuff to do. I'm not going to say I'm not sad to see kits go, but companies have to make what sells. I can tell you from working in a hobby shop though highschool, its tough to convince people to buy kits when theres a RTR on the shelf that appears to be pretty similar (if not better equipped) and for less than half of the price to get running; its not my cup of tea, but its what sells.

marca
08-11-2007, 01:07 PM
just figured id through an option out there for ya.

Thanks well now I'm gonna settle for the Jammin CRT RTR. they say its bullet proof. but i still wish i could afford the Kit :(

vaderbxman
08-11-2007, 01:48 PM
I don't get why people say race rollers are the end of the hobby. I sure wasn't wanting to build my own car when I started, and when you break parts on your RTR or just run it long enough, you learn how things work and how things break. I learned more with my Evaders than I have ever reading this forum, or any forum for that.

If you want to still build your own kit, take the whole thing apart, put the parts into piles, and open the instructions, and stop whining.

RTR aren't gonna go away, so we're in it for the long haul....

Hikari no Tenshi
08-11-2007, 02:37 PM
My first question is who you e-mailed that can't put together an e-mail with proper grammar and spelling... thats kinda scary.

Race rollers are hardly the end of the hobby. They do fill the desire to have things done for you though. Cars are going the way of planes, no one wants kits anymore, then want ARFs or PNPs. Then there are those of us who prefer to build... but now whos being lazy? When I get a RTR or a roller, I take it apart. You really aren't paying more than you'd be paying if you were getting a kit, so the only bummer is I have to take something apart. I still strip screws from time to time, things happen, but to call it poor quality because it isn't built exactly the way you would have built it seems pretty unfair to me. I work at a Hobbytown and I can't tell you the last time I had a request for a kit.

The inherent flaw I see in this argument is that the only way to get quality is a kit. Why can't you simply take the roller apart. Heck, you should at least nut and bolt an RTR. Now you're being the lazy one :D you want them to not build it for you so you don't have to take it apart. I'll take whatever the market gives me at this point. Am I bummed about rollers, sure, but to strip a vehicle only takes me about 2 hours, so it's not like i'm losing a ton of time getting it back up to snuff from a full strip. Heck, on 1/8ths, just nut and bolt it and change the diff and shock fluid and you're about done. The markets changing, you can deal or you can give up. I'm just as happy with rollers as kits, at least it's not full RTR where you can't even pick a motor and servo combo.

kilrb
08-11-2007, 02:43 PM
I've heard part of the reason for the race rollers is it cost less to assemble than sort and package all the parts. While I would prefer kits because I enjoy assembling them, learning about the inner workings, and not mention knowing everything is done the right way. I can deal with breaking it down and rebuilding it as well. I just hope the quality of say the RC8 isn't comprimised by it.

InspGadgt
08-11-2007, 04:42 PM
Well the way I see it RTRs and race ready rollers are a catch 22 in a way. Yes they bring in more people every year that wouldn't allready have been in the hobby...but the trend I saw when I worked at a hobby store was the majority of those "impulse" RTR buyers got out of the hobby almost as quickly as they got in and those that do stick with it would have bought a kit if an RTR wasn't offered. Race rollers are going to do the same thing...they will bring more people into racing but at the same time they will enforce a trend I see growing more and more. That is so many new racers expect to buy their racer, go racing, and expect to be as good or better then the veteran racers out there. Then they get frustrated and quit when they aren't as competitive as they thought rather then practicing and getting better.

balang_479
08-11-2007, 07:47 PM
very good comments here and opinions... end of the hobby no, but it will defenately make the purists angry....

I want kits, not eveyone does but they should be available as choice for those who do, its not that hard to simply not assemble a kit and package it up.

Im going to say this with a very smily face :D, i think the American companies are being American.....
you've made frozen dinners for everything, even frozen hamb burgers, that kinda stuff in the rest of the world does not exists, you make it yourself. Its a genius idea that many people will use but, their making everything easier for everyone, the companies are considering the end consumer as stupid people, so the US companies made frozen Hamb Burgers, and the same is happening in RC, their making the kits for you.

Inspgator made a very good point, more non-dedicated people are going to come into this hobby expecting to have everything handed too them, they will bring their RC cars to the LHS to repair instead of doing it them selves. The people who will dedicate their time to building a kit will dedicate it to improove this hobby.

And They always say "less time wrenching so you can get to the track quicker", its not like we buy kits every weekend, you build it ONCE, then after that its all servicing.. they must think we are all millionairs. Im not gonna buy a Buggy the night before i go racing.... YES an ARR will make sure i get to the race the next day but that would be stupid, id buy the kit weeks before and practice with it. for me personally they are useless.... youll breakdown the car for service hundreds of times, one time less doesnt make a difference.

Im glad the Japanese companies are still relying on Kits and they should do, for me a kit is what differs this hobby from everything else, the fact that YOU built it, you can buy a ready made Sports car like a Porsche, but i think its better to build a Caterham, its makes it interesting... when you build a kit you know that no one has built it like you, you followed the same instructions but each is unique.
I wish big companies thought about that for a second and not about selling the most products.. just my 0.02$
:D
hope i have not offended anyone by what i said as i did not intend to...

rccardude04
08-11-2007, 08:08 PM
I don't get why people say race rollers are the end of the hobby. I sure wasn't wanting to build my own car when I started...

I think you might have misunderstood my first post just slightly.
I wasn't really referring to starting out. I'm talking about how the race level vehicles that are aimed at serious racers and seasoned veterans... the guys who are really true hobbyists, are all of a sudden borderline RTR. It's still not about 'hating' RTR vehicles. I think they're great for newbies. It's just, the fact that some vehicles are not even being offered as kits that really gets me.
-Eric

MattHiggins
08-11-2007, 08:20 PM
"Race Rollers" are the end of the hobby

In my opinion, that is way overboard. I understand you might not want a race roller and I might not blame you, but they aren't causing the end of this hobby or even hurting it. If I owned an RC company I might not bother with kits.

Metla
08-11-2007, 08:22 PM
For me, The build is the best part, Its like a birth. You get a box of parts, a manual, Ya find ya screwdriver and get busy. A few hours later she takes her maiden voyage.

Awesome. Plus it gives you complete knowledge of the inner workings of your car.

Hell, I have bough a dozen or so kits just to build em, paint em, run em once and then flick them off.

Not that I have anything against RTR, but 99.9 percent of the time I prefer the kit.


My first build, a Tamiya Super Champ at age 11.

rccardude04
08-11-2007, 08:36 PM
Matt, I guess i mean hobby like... the actual hobby part of the "sport" or whatever you want to call it. The sport will always be there, but the "hobby" seems to be disappearing because certain unnamed distributors/companies are deciding that we don't want kits any more.
-Eric

MattHiggins
08-11-2007, 09:12 PM
All I can advice is to speak with your wallets. Buy only what you want, and the companies will take notice and deliver. If the rise of RTRs and ARTRs (AKA race rollers) causes a fall in sales, you'll see more kits. Be prepared that the influx of RTRs and ARTRs might show an increase in profits and an increase in sales or at least no decline.

thedarkness
08-11-2007, 09:25 PM
I speak with my wallet, its a little hard when companies WONT offer a cool new car in kit form. The CRT.5 is a roller, the new ae buggy is a roller, the losi truck and now the losi buggy beides the eight buggy none is even offered as a kit.
It seems if you want a kit you either need to buy a japanese or european 1/8th on or offroad or buy a 1/10th electric tourer.

zueslilbuddy
08-11-2007, 09:58 PM
I just dont get the problem here.
The parts are mass produced.
whats the big deal with them just throwing them in a box and letting us put it together.
They will sell us parts trees.
they will sell us single parts.
They wont sell us a box with all the parts????

Grant Tokumi
08-11-2007, 10:23 PM
I just dont get the problem here.
The parts are mass produced.
whats the big deal with them just throwing them in a box and letting us put it together.
They will sell us parts trees.
they will sell us single parts.
They wont sell us a box with all the parts????
I'm no manufacturing expert, but I suspect that the effort involved in making a kit package may actually be as expensive or more expensive than making an RTR or race roller package. There are probably MANY things that go into a kit that we consumers take for granted as being little to no cost. Like how to "throw them in a box" in a way that won't break parts, and how to separate parts in a way that helps the builder during assembly. Not to mention putting together a comprehensive manual.

marca
08-11-2007, 10:28 PM
well i like this it is getting interesting. i agree 100% with matt... we are the ones that control what the manufacturers make. if the see a rise in kits they will make more kits. BUT!! they will make us pay for the kit by boosting up the prices.

nitro syco
08-11-2007, 10:29 PM
The companys are here to make money and as long as they are making money they are happy and they make what they think the magority of people want and if they think they want a rtr or roller then thats what they produce. Losi is introducing the Race roller buggy but they will still be offering the kit, there is probably a reason for that, they will be able to compare numbers instead of comparing them to another product they will be able to compare the Losi 8B kit numbers to the Losi 8B race roller numbers and there next cars will probably be offered in the same style as the winning 8B. Yes RTRs are a good asset to the hobby because obviously they bring people into the hobby and Race rollers can also be good for some because some people just dont enjoy the working part of the hobby and some also just simply dont have the time to put aside 8 hours to build their car. While some of us (myself) are on summer break right now and have all the time in the world to sit on our buts responding in a semi pointless thread, to completely dissasemble their vehicles every run, and enjoy all the parts of the hobby that dont involve being on the drivers stand with transmitter in hand and a nosefull of exhaust. Some people just only like the driving part of the hobby and some like every little part about it and the companys are going to try to make the most money they can while trying to make people happy. For example the winner of the european championships drove a rtr Hobao buggy, all because he didnt want to build it so he got the rtr swaped out the electronics/motor got it up to his liking and beat all the Xrays, mugens, losis, ofnas and all the other home built kits. But yes I do agree that a company should always offer a kit because bassicialy the people in the factory are given a kit so all they would need to do is put it in a box and put it on the shelfs of their distributers. You can all speak with your wallets and I will do the same but if others have louder wallets then the companys will listen to them.

atm92484_3
08-11-2007, 10:39 PM
I'm no manufacturing expert, but I suspect that the effort involved in making a kit package may actually be as expensive or more expensive than making an RTR or race roller package. There are probably MANY things that go into a kit that we consumers take for granted as being little to no cost. Like how to "throw them in a box" in a way that won't break parts, and how to separate parts in a way that helps the builder during assembly. Not to mention putting together a comprehensive manual.

From what I've understood, once all of the little parts are placed in their respective baggies by the respective machines/employees and sealed, all of those little baggies go into a box. That box is then weighed and has to be within +/- a certain weight; if its off, somethings missing.

I'm sure this is defiently more expensive and complicated than just having RTRs/ARRs. As a company, you'd atleast know your prebuilt chassis is done when the car rolls, the suspension holds it up, and whatever fluids that are in the car don't leak...seems much easier and if you forget a part, I'm sure theres a bin holding about a billion more at someone's work station.

In the same sense, I'd hate to be a 1:1 kit car company. Imagine trying to package 1:1 sized chassises and other parts in big crates and ensuring all of the little bolts, shims, and odds and ends are in place. :eek:

Heck, lets use that market as a example - Caterham sells Sevens as both complete cars and kits. I'd be interested to see in this larger and more expensive example how many cars were sold each year as complete cars and as kits.

balang_479
08-12-2007, 05:08 AM
well Caterhams are not sold built, coming out of the Factory they are all in parts, then the customer can pay the dealer extra to assemble it.

rccardude04
08-12-2007, 10:27 AM
They started offering assembled cars a few years back. The CSR is only available built actually.
You have to pay them to build the other models if I remember right. I think they've kind of lost sight as a company... lol. Much like it seems the rc companies are trying to do. :)
-Eric

Gereke
08-12-2007, 08:55 PM
I don't think RTR/ARTR's are the end of the Hobby. Besides if you think about it, based on the logic that it's not a big deal to build from the ground up- Because you'll tear it apart several times down the road during maintenance- It shouldn't be a big deal to tear a RTR down, inspect everything to make sure it's where it's supposed to be.. Then re-assemble with the same TLC you'd give a kit.

If you're a true hobbyist then that should be no imposition at all. The time is there to be invested if you want to take it. You don't have to trust the factory worker if you trust yourself to fix what they miss. It's just time.

That being said- When I got into the R/C hobby, the majority of boxes on the shelf at the Hobby Shop were kits. However, there was still a lazy mans outlet. You could pay a little extra money to have the guys at the Hobby Shop put the kit together for you. If I recall the store I went to charged about $100 to build a kit for you.

Granted not everyone that buys an R/C vehicle is going to be a hard core hobbyist who wants to finger fiddle every screw. Some want to take the vehicle out of the box and scream around. Some will take the time to read the included documentation with an RTR, and some won't. Some will learn how to fix it themselves.. Some won't. The best thing about this hobby is that it has always had something to offer for everyone.. The level of involvement is up to the person at the controls. Some folks will wash out of it because they learn they don't have the patience. Some folks get hooked on it and it becomes worse than crack.

I've owned many R/C vehicles over the years, and the majority have been kits... . I enjoy putting them together. In fact I wish I could start my own "side business" to just build kits for other people. But probably not much money to be made there. My most recent R/c purchase however was a Savage X 4.6 RTR. It was sitting on the shelf right next to the SS kit. I had the money for either one, and I opted for the RTR.. It was one of the times I just didn't feel like building it. However when I got home, I thumbed through the manual, and gave the truck a good twice over to make sure everything was as it should be.

So once more I ask.. Whats the problem? If you question the workmanship put into the factory assembly of an RTR.. Whats the big deal in taking it apart and seeing for yourself..

After all.. It's no biggie to build it once.. no biggie to build it twice.

ericem
08-12-2007, 09:33 PM
lol you guys really are upset about this. To be honest I don't care. If I could buy a kit with the radio motor and everything needed I would buy that kit instead of a RTR. Only reason why I don't look at kits is because I don't want to have to find a motor and radio. Also the kit is usually the same price as the RTR. BUT the kit has better quality odds and ends. IMO i look at it as its the same price and I don't need anything else to run the car.

InspGadgt
08-13-2007, 03:55 AM
True it saves you money...but it costs other racers more. RTRs usually come with very low end electronics and all my cars run high end electronics. So for me an RTR will cost me more because I buy the RTR, gut the electronics that are worthless to me and put in new electronics. So now I've paid twice for electronics.

rccardude04
08-13-2007, 11:23 AM
Gereke... You make a decent point. My argument still isn't with RTRs though. The target audience for 99% of RTR vehicles is with the newer people in the hobby. And that's fine, get them into the hobby. RTRs are great for that. I'd even buy an S-Maxx or something RTR to bash with. But, as many will probably agree, race vehicles are something that the majority of us take great care into assembling and maintaining. It's just silly to buy a truck that's put together and immediately take it apart to fix anything that's messed up from the factory. Whether it be loctite, shock oil, diff oil, whatever. It takes way more time and effort to disassemble a vehicle, dispose of the fluids, and put it back together while replacing whatever quality control skipped over as far as stripped screws or whatever. I'm not sure about everybody else, but kits are almost the lazy way out when doing a race vehicle. You only have to put it together once. It may be an 8 hour venture, but it's sure better than the 15 hours it'll take to tear it down and reassemble it.
-Eric

chukb
08-13-2007, 11:51 AM
just because an AE employee says in an email that they aren't making kits and he thinks Losi will do the same hardly seems like a reason to be upset.

rtrs are essential for beginners, but I don't think pro kits will disappear just because AE doesn't want to offer one on their new buggy.

rccardude04
08-13-2007, 11:55 AM
Losi released the 8ight-T only as a roller + an RTR. Losi is releasing a roller version of the 8ight buggy also. Losi, though, at least still has a kit version of the buggy.
-Eric

Jspeed
08-13-2007, 01:20 PM
Well I think the biggest problem facing the future of R/C racing is the fact that there are many who don’t want to distinguish the difference between Hobby & Sport.

The “hobby” label is put every form of RC there is. I personally feel it does an injustice to hard-core racers and is the real reason that the sport of RC racing has never gone mainstream.

By simple definition, the RC car hobby is the building & collecting of vehicles for one’s pleasure. This is similar to stagnant model building & collecting or like stamp, coins or music.

On the other hand, when a person enters their RC vehicle into racing competitions against other RC enthusiasts, the hobby is turned into a sport. Stamps and coin collectors don’t race their pride & joy to win a race.

The general or mainstream public would embrace RC racing much more if all of us would recognize the difference between hobby & sport.

Will the RTR industry hurt RC racing?

I don’t think so, in fact, it is a great way for “newbie’s” to be introduced to our sport of RC racing.

I was introduced to RC fun with an Ofna Violator. I bashed with it for a few months and it was a great introduction to the hobby.

Now, when I went to the track, it was a whole different story. I was quickly educated to the limitations of my vehicle. I wanted to race and so the learning curve began. My next vehicle was a racing kit.

Now after 5 years of being an RC junkie, I currently race 1/8 scale On-Road. Do I want an RTR or ARR for my next racing vehicle? Not really, but if someone like Art Carbonell, Ralph Burch JR or Barry Baker were to offer an RTR built by them, I’d buy it and go racing with it.

On the other hand, Kyosho’s Inferno GT On-Road buggy based RTR cars are very good for the growth of RC racing. They’re tough, fast and fun. Their cost is also very good as an introduction to racing. We’re actually contemplating to formation of a “racing class” for this vehicle.

The main thing that will grow the sport of RC racing is the amount of RC racers that exist. If we all want to see our sport go mainstream, maybe RTR products aren’t that bad.

Gereke
08-13-2007, 07:21 PM
I can't see a non-intimidating medium for getting introduced to a Hobby/Sport as being a bad thing at all either. Sure, you may not be able to rip a lot of RTR's out of the box and go get on the winners stand. But it's a start.

I know that when I first got started in R/C's with Aircraft.. I was intimidated by kits.. Because I knew if they weren't built right the plane would not fly properly. Crashing planes=BAD.. It's so easy to total them. Which is why the 90% pre-assembled were great.. I got an introduction into the hobby by having to just install a motor and my radio gear. A stepping stone in learning how to assemble.. Then my next plane was a kit that my Uncle, who has loads of kit building experience helped me build.. To show me all the little tips and tricks. After that I was able to do it on my own.

Much of the same can be said about R/C Vehicle kits.. To someone with NO experience building them- they can be confusing. The instructions require attention and sometimes the diagrams aren't clear cut..At least to a novice. With RTR's the novice can take it out of the box and see the finished product. Sooner or later maintenance has to be done which is going to require some disassembly. Here is where they start getting experience with reading the diagrams, and they get the benefit of seeing what things should look like physically.. They can take a look at an assembled differential for example.. and as they take it apart they see exactly where each part goes.. If they need a reference for reassembly they look in the manual at the diagrams. The connection is made easily because they can remember what it looked like before they took it apart.

This can be all it takes to break someone of the "unsure" feeling if they decide to tackle a kit. A confidence builder so to speak. I know I could probably rip my Savage apart and put it back together in the time it would have taken me to build it from a kit... Because I won't need to read the manual.. I'm good at "reverse engineering" so to speak because I've been in the hobby for a long time. I get a mental picture of where every thing goes as I take things apart.

I bought a used HPI RS4 Sport off of ebay a couple years ago.. It was the second one I owned.. the first I had built up from a kit.. So the new one was basically an RTR for me. I took it all the way apart to inspect everything before I drove it.. Put it back together with out even having a manual for it. The whole process took me a shorter period of time than when I had built my first from the kit.

This is why, I say for the EXPERIENCED and supposedly "dedicated" R/C car enthusiast.. That buying a RTR or a "Race Roller" and taking it apart to make sure things are good to go.. Should be no imposition whatsoever. If you love the hobby/sport then whats the problem other than being lazy? I thought some of the flavor of racing was putting time and effort into making your vehicle the best it can be.. So you can get the TQ and the podium finish.

I'm by no means saying kits should go away.. Not at all, I love building them and I wish I was rich, so I could have a garage full of them. Keep me busy on lazy days. But if RTR's and Rollers start becoming the norm then folks are going to have suck it up, and put in a little willingness to do some re-assembly.

Straick
08-13-2007, 10:31 PM
The thing that I hate is going to a LHS and seeing a car or truck you want, but it only comes with the junk electronics that end up on the floor or in the trashcan, only because you can't even order it in a ARR even. When I got my REVO, I swapped the radio before I even ran the truck. All that the stock radio got used for was to test out the electronics(servos) so that if there was a problem I could still take advantage of that "if it hasn't been run yet" type of warranty.
I personnaly have seen what cheap electronics can do to people and vehicles. A busted ankle and wrecked REVO(not mine mind you) because the trans decided to go on a siesta and the throttle stayed open with no steering control. And the battery for the receiver was freshly charged(<5 minutes run time on it since charge) and the batteries in the trans where fresh out of the pack. I know this because I saw him swap the batts and he used my charger to charge the pack(he forgot to bring his). My overall opinion on them, RTR is ok for smaller(Micro's and Mini's) RC apps where speeds are slower and weight is much less. Then if something fails, it's not a s dangerous.
As far as the fastners go, I check them when I open the box just because I don't feel like finding a loose fastner by crashing because something came apart.
Worst part of the one's who get in with a "Race ready" is that they expect great performance and handling on a track because it said that it was "Race ready". They don't even realize that the car is setup in what the company thinks is the best setup for general racing. Then they get annoyed at you when you can hold a line in a corner and they just slide right to the outside trying to hold the same line. I now own 4 cars that regularly run, and not one of them is truly stock anymore. Even my Evader ST(I know, not the best out there out of the box, but it was a gift) is becoming a hybrid car. Parts from here and there to create a car that behaves the way I want it to.
Don't get me started on what they put on them for tires. They are either too hard or too soft for use the way that the car will be used. That is especially noticable when deeling with offroad. My Evader saw hardpacked dirt for maybe 10 minutes with the stock tires and they were done. I got a set with the same pattern, but a different brand, and they lasted much better.
The biggest problem that the RTR's are creating though is a shortage of "stock" parts for repair work. A lot of the people who buy the RTR's don't bother to just repair the car to what it was, they want to "upgrade" it because if the part broke it was too "weak". In my opinion, aluminum A-arms are a bad idea. But try to find stock parts at some LHS's and you realize exactly what I mean. Some shops don't even carry common parts anymore because a lot of people don't bother to fix there cars themselfs or they go online for all of there parts.
Then there are the absolute worst ones. The toys(and I stress TOYS) that are sold being labeled as hobby quality. But when something breaks, there is no way to get replacement parts for repair. I was in a shop one day when someone brought in one of those toys with a broken A-arm. When he found out that he would have to modify the chassis just to replace the part, he flipped out.

Sorry if I ranted a little bit, but the RTR's have there place, and "Race Ready" should really be labeled "Ready to Tune to Race" or something to that affect. And overall, I don't like or want one of those toys that so often are labeled to make people think that they are getting something better than they really are.

Overall, there is a place for all cars, but they should really offer more cars in a readily purchased ARR as a minimum. I know that Losi did that with the Mini-T when they noticed how many people where buying the cars and scrapping the stock radio before they even got any power to them. More companies should take a cue from that logic. I know, thats what people wanted, but I would like to be able to choose a car and get it without having to gut the chassis before I can run it because I don't use the "stock" elect's for my reasons(don't trust them well enough).

Long story short, I think all cars should be offered as a ARR as a minimum, preferably with a kit version as well for those of us(like me) who tend to tweak and "upgrade" from the stock setup before they even truly run the cars.

At least interest in the hobby and sport side seem to be growing.

LD3Furious
08-14-2007, 04:02 PM
FWIW, On another forum I frequent, Richard Saxton stated that he will be directly involved in supervising the build team for the RC8. I imagine many would take comfort in that.
That being said, I still prefer kits. I understand the choice to go ARR, but am disappointed that there is no choice, period. The best thing to do,for those that are like me, and I have advocated this on other forums...email the manufacturers and distributors. Also as noted in other posts on this thread, make your vote count with your dollar :)

Ed237
08-15-2007, 01:37 PM
Its a non issue for me. If I have to buy a roller, I will dismantle it and re-assemble it. It won't take too much more time because, when it arrived, I could see how everything fit together.

I wonder if the proliferation of 'race rollers' could be only just a reflection of the manufacturers losing money on kits.

How could they lose money? They sell the kit, someone attempts to assemble it, they mess up, call support and the manufacturer sends them the part or parts free through the mail at their cost. We've all heard the stories in the pits.

The manufacturers answer: Here's your RTR or Pre Built! No more lost or improperly installed parts claims. But this will only work if they maintain high quality control standards.

Time will tell.

Grant Tokumi
08-15-2007, 04:01 PM
How could they lose money? They sell the kit, someone attempts to assemble it, they mess up, call support and the manufacturer sends them the part or parts free through the mail at their cost. We've all heard the stories in the pits.
I can believe this argument. Not only calling support and the manufacturer sending parts, but also companies unfairly getting bad reputations due to improper kit assembly and then consumer bad mouthing the product on online forums. If the manufacturers do the assembly, at least they have better control if problems do arise. I've always thought Traxxas could afford to provide the reputable customer service only because they did not leave it up to the consumer to put the vehicle together.

Check out this video:
http://www.rcarchive.com/pics/2005/my_vid_part.wmv
http://www.rcarchive.com/pics/2005/savage.jpg

True evidence that the HPI Savage must be a poor product because it breaks in half. :)

pimpride
08-15-2007, 07:46 PM
If the manufacturers do the assembly, at least they have better control if problems do arise. I've always thought Traxxas could afford to provide the reputable customer service only because they did not leave it up to the consumer to put the vehicle together.
Most who said they would buy a 'Race Roller' also said that they would also take it home and tear it down to rebuild it their way, negating any advantage of a factory build.

vaderbxman
08-15-2007, 08:24 PM
Poop?

It almost looks staged. I don't think savages break that easy. I've seen them take licks most 1/8th scale buggies and truggies can't

XXWoodmanXX
08-15-2007, 11:23 PM
Check out this video:
http://www.rcarchive.com/pics/2005/my_vid_part.wmv
http://www.rcarchive.com/pics/2005/savage.jpg

True evidence that the HPI Savage must be a poor product because it breaks in half. :)

Null and void. The producer of that video fully-admitted to "staging" the chassis to break upon landing. :teacher:

rccardude04
08-16-2007, 12:32 AM
That video has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
I would like to see some evidence from manufacturers that supports the claim of "the distributors" that rollers will sell more than kits for the exact same product... just one being partially assembled and the other a bag of parts.
-Eric

marca
08-16-2007, 07:49 AM
[QUOTE=Grant Tokumi;2270722]I can believe this argument. Not only calling support and the manufacturer sending parts, but also companies unfairly getting bad reputations due to improper kit assembly and then consumer bad mouthing the product on online forums. If the manufacturers do the assembly, at least they have better control if problems do arise. I've always thought Traxxas could afford to provide the reputable customer service only because they did not leave it up to the consumer to put the vehicle together.[QUOTE]

good point but here is were i disagree.everyne said that RTRs were to atract people to this hobby meaning that a good percentage of the people that join buy a rtr for thier first rc. so only "experienced" people will be the ones building the kits therefore kits will be properly assembled...........I'm waiting for someone to disagree with me lol

cnroman
08-16-2007, 12:28 PM
A couple years ago, it was the RTR's that were the 'death' of the hobby.
The hobby is still very much alive and thriving.

I think what some of us miss with RTR's & Race Rollers is that scence of achievement when the build is complete and it runs well.

ptpracing
08-17-2007, 11:18 AM
The title of this thread couldnt be any more wrong. RTRs are great for the hobby. How many T-Maxx and Revo owners are there? RTRs like that sell like hot cakes in comparison to kits. When some kid walks into the hobby store to buy an r/c he wants to run it right away. RTRs are much easier for newbies to stomach. More people coming into the hobby is exactly what we need. The new race rollers are a fantastic idea now new guys can walk into the store and buy a ready to race model and head to their local track and have a competitve car how great is that? If you like kits like I do you can always take it apart and rebuild it to your own specifications. If the manufacturers and distributors are calling for pre-built cars obviously thats what they are selling and profitting the most on and I just hope maybe it leads to more people in the hobby and wouldnt mind if it led to lower prices either.

rocknbil
08-17-2007, 01:36 PM
.....Kits do not pay the bills RTR's do and by a HUGE margin....We would [offer kits] but the demand from the distributors [for kits] is not there.


This answers the question completely and totally. Manufacturers are not force-feeding anyone anything, they're giving the public what they want. This is measured by real numbers, by what people actually buy. If kits were selling, they'd keep a crew on board to assemble kits. He's telling you kits don't sell any more. This is why they don't sell them.

So if you want to "blame" anyone for the absence of kits in the market, you only have the buying public to blame.

Grant Tokumi
08-17-2007, 04:28 PM
So if you want to "blame" anyone for the absence of kits in the market, you only have the buying public to blame.
Darn that capitalism.

rccardude04
08-17-2007, 11:11 PM
The title of this thread couldnt be any more wrong. RTRs are great for the hobby. How many T-Maxx and Revo owners are there? RTRs like that sell like hot cakes in comparison to kits. When some kid walks into the hobby store to buy an r/c he wants to run it right away. RTRs are much easier for newbies to stomach. More people coming into the hobby is exactly what we need. The new race rollers are a fantastic idea now new guys can walk into the store and buy a ready to race model and head to their local track and have a competitve car how great is that? If you like kits like I do you can always take it apart and rebuild it to your own specifications. If the manufacturers and distributors are calling for pre-built cars obviously thats what they are selling and profitting the most on and I just hope maybe it leads to more people in the hobby and wouldnt mind if it led to lower prices either.

Did you not read my post? I said race rollers. RTRs are awesome. Putting kit level cars together for hardcore guys is stupid.
I guess since nobody understands my argument, I'll give up.

bil... I'm not sure what he's talking about selling more rollers than kits since they have no rollers, but lots of kits. Our shop sure as heck sells more 8ight buggy kits than we do 8ight-T rollers, and those who bought the 8ight-T rollers have complained that they'd rather have a kit. It can't just be the one shop with the same trend...
-Eric

Giant655
08-18-2007, 10:49 AM
Did you not read my post? I said race rollers. RTRs are awesome. Putting kit level cars together for hardcore guys is stupid.
I guess since nobody understands my argument, I'll give up.

bil... I'm not sure what he's talking about selling more rollers than kits since they have no rollers, but lots of kits. Our shop sure as heck sells more 8ight buggy kits than we do 8ight-T rollers, and those who bought the 8ight-T rollers have complained that they'd rather have a kit. It can't just be the one shop with the same trend...
-Eric

unfortunately where I used to work at, we did exactly the opposite. As much as I agree with your side of the argument and absolutely itch to build a kit after so long. My hobbytown sold so many RTR's, we had 4-5 kits in the whole store, after they started collecting dust cause no one wanted them, we ended up marking them down and eventually stuck em on ebay, because they didnt move. Our store was a much more begginer oriented place though, hardly any racers rolled through there cause of it, even after we got a track set up in the parking lot, it still ended up being 10-15 MT's coming and maybe 1-3 TC's showing. So I guess its just the atmosphere that affects your buyer base. I still agree with your argument, they ( RC companies) should always make a kit version of a car ( be it not very many, as there are lots of lazy people lol) for the die hard guys who like to build their own rides.

rccardude04
08-18-2007, 12:30 PM
We sell way more RTRs than kits also. But I still have no beef with RTR vehicles. I never even mentioned them in my first post. They keep coming up even though this thread has absolutely nothing to do with RTR vehicles.
The RTR vehicles always come with cheaper components... Shock towers, chassis, engine mounts, shocks, hardware in general, etc. The kits always come with the high end stuff. Thicker tower, better shocks, lightened 7075 chassis, whatever. Cheaper RTR vehicles are great because they get people into the hobby. That's what they are for. "Race Rollers" are the assembled version of the kit with the high end parts. That's where my issue/argument lies. It's not with the cheaper versions. It's with the higher end versions that are already partially put together. I have absolutely no problem with revos, savages, t-maxxes, and the like being pre-assembled. What I don't like is that racing companies such as losi and associated are taking out their kit lines entirely. While they don't sell as many 8ight kits as they do RTRs, they still will offer the "kit" because it has the high end parts. The problem is, it looks like eventually there will be no kit. Just a "roller" that is essentially the kit which is built. It's marketed to the same audience as the kit. Not the audience that would otherwise buy the RTR.
I hope that made sense. I just woke up, lol.
To summarize:
RTRs are marketed for beginners/mid level people and I have absolutely no problem with them
Kits are high end cars that are left for us to put together ... marketed towards the more hardcore guys
"Race Rollers" are kits that are assembled marketed also towards the hardcore guys, but from what I've seen, the hardcore guys want to build their own cars... so why do "race rollers" exist?
I still have yet to see any evidence to suggest that rollers sell better than kits. Not that rtrs sell better than kits. That's obvious. But do "Race rollers" sell better than equivalently equipped high end race cars? I doubt it. The stuff hasn't had anything to compare to yet.
I guess I kinda ranted... I'll post anyway. Maybe somebody will understand who has misunderstood my argument previously...
-Eric

marca
08-18-2007, 01:25 PM
ah ok. well i don't that they are at all because new people that join this hobby will probably go for rtrs because they are cheaper and ready to go.

Grant Tokumi
08-18-2007, 01:56 PM
I see your point rccardude. I agree this thread had gone off on a tangent, assuming race roller and RTR are the samething, admittingly with me being part of that tangent.


What this says to me is that the distributors (mainly Horizon Hobby, probably Great Planes to some extent) are deciding for us that kits are obsolete.

Getting back on track with your original post, if race rollers are really not fit for "hardcore guys", even time and sales will not be able to tell that that decision was a bad marketing choice if kits are not also available to compare.


Is it easier to get into the hobby now than ever before? Yes. That's great. Don't stop. But don't go off forcing those of us who are in it for the actual hobby itself to settle for the mainstream crap they're trying to sell us.

You point out a clear direction change the rc car makers and distributors are going. Is it a shove it down a kit builders throat mentality? Perhaps thats one way of putting it.

Could you say that the Ultimate Fighting Championship's decision to bring in a larger broader audience by creating more structure and rules is a shove it down a purist's throat mentality? Perhaps that one way of putting it.

Do you think that if Associated was not bought out by Thunder Tiger, would the RC8 be sold in a kit form? Would there even be an RC8?

Is Losi still Losi? Or is it really Horizon Hobby in disguise? Does it really matter? :)

Will there be after market companies that pop up who would take race rollers and put them back into kit form, packaging parts in little plastic baggies with letters and numbers on them, and create nice comprehensive manuals, to cater to "hardcore racers"?

rccardude04
08-18-2007, 04:46 PM
Getting back on track with your original post, if race rollers are really not fit for "hardcore guys", even time and sales will not be able to tell that that decision was a bad marketing choice if kits are not also available to compare.

Yep. That's part of my argument against one certain company. The other one is at least offering us a buggy in kit and roller form. I hope the kits sell more so the other company will see I'm right :D lol



You point out a clear direction change the rc car makers and distributors are going. Is it a shove it down a kit builders throat mentality? Perhaps thats one way of putting it.

I think it is. Nobody even asked our store if we thought we'd sell more rollers or kits. They just assumed we'll sell more rollers I guess... Sounds kinda dumb.



Do you think that if Associated was not bought out by Thunder Tiger, would the RC8 be sold in a kit form? Would there even be an RC8?

Is Losi still Losi? Or is it really Horizon Hobby in disguise? Does it really matter? :)

TTR vs. Associated I'm not sure. But I bet there would be a buggy because of Losi competing with them. As far as roller vs. kit, I bet it'd be a kit. I have nothing against Thunder Tiger. They make awesome helicopters. I just wish they wouldn't change the company's philosophy.

If Losi was still Losi, Mr. Losi would still be there I'm sure. I'm not saying it's really a bad thing entirely. They're making more money than ever I'm sure, which is the point of a business. But it's kind of sad to see them changing directions from what they once were. It seems like this was Mr. Losi's view also.



Will there be after market companies that pop up who would take race rollers and put them back into kit form, packaging parts in little plastic baggies with letters and numbers on them, and create nice comprehensive manuals, to cater to "hardcore racers"?

That I had not thought of. Would be kind of interesting, but it'd cost more. And in that case, I'd just take it apart myself. LOL

Thanks for the post. I needed evidence that somebody had actually listened! :D
-Eric

cucan
08-19-2007, 08:14 PM
Well as some of us had started this hobby more than 10years ago(i started in 89),i remember that RTRs were hardly existed.And by the years we are unfortunately in this situation where there are a few kits in the market.YEs RTR gets the people to the hobby but for someone begining it shouldnt be get the rtr,fill the nitro or put the battery and go.I dont think this way it can be considered a real hobby,becouse as all of you will agree that we enjoy the time spent on assembling/disassambling/reparing/maintanence is also quiet enjoyable.
I am also a member on other RC related sites in europe and unfortunately the forums are filled with very basic questions that make you smile,cause these guys unfortunately apart from being lazy to assamble their cars,they dont even look at the instruction manuals.So instead of having quality conversations in the forums we always get quantity of people that dont have a damn idea about the even most basic thing.
So yes RTR gets more people involved,companies making a lot of money that they could have never imagined 10 years ago but thats it.

zueslilbuddy
08-19-2007, 08:41 PM
Well as some of us had started this hobby more than 10years ago(i started in 89),i remember that RTRs were hardly existed.And by the years we are unfortunately in this situation where there are a few kits in the market.YEs RTR gets the people to the hobby but for someone begining it shouldnt be get the rtr,fill the nitro or put the battery and go.I dont think this way it can be considered a real hobby,becouse as all of you will agree that we enjoy the time spent on assembling/disassambling/reparing/maintanence is also quiet enjoyable.
I am also a member on other RC related sites in europe and unfortunately the forums are filled with very basic questions that make you smile,cause these guys unfortunately apart from being lazy to assamble their cars,they dont even look at the instruction manuals.So instead of having quality conversations in the forums we always get quantity of people that dont have a damn idea about the even most basic thing.
So yes RTR gets more people involved,companies making a lot of money that they could have never imagined 10 years ago but thats it.
Ya i agree i started 27 years ago and back then rtr ment paying the hobby shop to assemble it for you.
Or buying it second hand.

rccardude04
08-19-2007, 08:59 PM
You guys, the argument still is not about RTR vehicles.
-Eric

Ed237
08-19-2007, 11:53 PM
For reasons not exactly clear rollers are proving to be more profitable than kits. Maybe they sell better or maybe they dont require as much after sales support.

If the RC8 proves itself at the track I would get one whether it was a roller, kit, or RTR. But thats just me. I can care less how it's packed. I want what works.

I hardly think AE is taking a chance or going out on a limb with a roller instead of a kit. What 'serious' true RC enthusiast would refuse to buy vehicle they want because its not offered as a kit?

Grant Tokumi
08-21-2007, 03:03 AM
This whole race roller concept may be a nice way of saying that even hardcore guys don't necessarily know how to properly put a vehicle together. :) Hows that saying go? People who "think" they know about race cars make them twice as ignorant as the novice....

How about this for a different perspective on race roller vs kit. If you were at RCX and you saw your favorite pro driver with all his diff oils, shock oils, camber and caster gauges, and special custom droop gauges, assembling kits during the show, dropping those vehicles in a box, and selling them, would you choose to buy that or a sealed kit sitting next to it for the same price?

Or what if you were at the 2007 Truck Nats and you saw your favorite pro sponsored racer with 7 unopen boxes of race rollers in his pit, grabbing those boxes 1 at a time swapping out vehicles like he was swapping out tires for every qualifier and main? Would that give race rollers a different perspective? Actually, if I saw that at a race, it would tell me that the racer is giving their race roller assembly complete confidence and would surely give me that same confidence. Assuming of course that the driver finished every race with all parts intact....

hauling
08-21-2007, 04:34 PM
a few pros, and cons to kits
pros
you get to build it your self
you know the truck
cons
you build it not a person that builds the same part repedidly
takes time to build
NOT THAT GREAT LOOKING TO PEOPLE NEW TO THE HOBBY

now the race rollers
pros
they are prebuilt out of the box
need usualy only batteries, fule and you
NEW PEOPLE LIKE THE IDEA OF OPINING A BOX AND RUNNING NOT TRYING TO BUILD IT
cons
screws might be loose
:confused:


so if i was a manufacture i would just box the parts and sell them as a kit and build some at the factory. my thoughts:teacher:

Ed237
08-21-2007, 07:43 PM
What if offering rollers and kits would mean they both would cost $25 more? Remember, manufacturers and retailers don't do something with product packaging unless there is a financial reason to do so.

If AE says this is the best way for them to provide you with highest quality and lowest cost why argue about it. I am all about whatever gives me the most value for my money.

Grant Tokumi
08-22-2007, 04:06 PM
Heres an honest question. Who are the heavy hitters in our industry anyways? Which entities make the decisions and creates the influence that directs this hobby/sport in a certain direction, such as to offer kits, race rollers, RTR, etc.

I used to assume it was the individual car makers. Associated, Losi, Traxxas, Novak, Trinity, etc. They make their own decision on what product they want to create, and they reap the rewards or pay the price with those decisions. But after this response, I'm not too sure about that anymore.

Associated said:

"We would [offer kits] but the demand from the distributors [for kits] is not there."

Is this suggesting that distributors (assuming they are Great Planes, Horizon Hobbies, etc) have a stronger influence on what products car manufacturers create, by dictating what kind of products they will purchase from the car makers? Like "we will only purchase/distribute RTR and race rollers vehicles from you, so its in your better interest to wean out kits."

Not trying to start any commotion or conspiracy theories, just an interesting observation.

Ed237
08-22-2007, 06:04 PM
Thats a good question and it would be great if someone who knew would post here and settle it.

But since they probably wont, I'll take a stab at it: A distributer or wholesaler or On-Line store or whatever is also a customer like you or me. If they buy something that doesnt sell, be assured they wont buy more of it unless the manufacturer gives them a break.

Ultimately, the manufacturer will always get left holding the bag. So you could imagine the pressure on them to be able sell all of what they produce. Rollers are the answer to that because more pople will consider a roller than a kit.

We all know there is very little profit on the sale of the kit itself and until recent years the manufacturers and retailers used to make a lot more money on replacmenet and hop up parts. But with quality continuously improving the profits on aftermarket and support parts is dissapearing too.

For example: I had to invest $50 in my FT RC10GT kit to really make it race ready and continued to need eclips and arm carriers and servo arms every few weeks to keep it going. My FT RC10GT2, however, needed absolutely nothing out of the box and almost 2 months later it still hasnt required a thing (except maybe a better driver).

When profits are squeezed and things we took for granted (like kits) dissapear.

momosport
08-24-2007, 05:51 PM
WOW!!! Interesting points of view Both Pro and Con.

About me:
I've been involved in RC off and on for over 12 years and have acquired over 20 cars. These have been both NIB kits and used cars as well. Ive worked in 2 diff. HS, both of which were independent stores (Not a chain like a Hobbytown, HobbyPeople etc) and I think that can influence purchases. (more about that later.) My first RC was a T2 which I built because I wanted to know the ins and outs and be able to customize it how I wanted.

I knew going into RC I was going to stick with it and wanted a competitve "RACE" vehicle which I DID race. And every vehicle since that I Raced, was in KIT form. I, like many, enjoy the building element and all that goes into it. However, when I was working for a HS and a new customer would come in, I spent quite a bit of time finding out what they wanted to do with it. Many of them were looking to step up from the "Radio Shack" and "tyco" types. I inquired if they liked building OR if they wanted a "backyard basher" in RTR form. I found those people who had radio shack were intimidated about having to build their first kit, so they bought an RTR. They would be back time and time again for parts and upgrades. Eventually, they graduated into more complicated kits and more difficult vehicles.

Those who just wanted a toy and were happy w/ RTR OR who wanted to keep things fair (multiple cars for say a father and son or brothers).

This HOBBY is great in that there are varying degrees of difficulty and varying levels. Its true, many people would rather go home charge a battery and go play (goes back to the generalization about americans being lazy) where-as others like the challenge of building.

I was sure to tell people that replacing parts would be part of the learning and that sooner or later they would be tearing into it. Biggest thing was to BE PATIENT and take their time. You notice that even RTR are shipped with manuals!

Though I would rather get that instant gratification and go from the shop to the track, I'll continue to buy kits for my competitive racing. Looking forward, once I have more $$ available, the AE B44 and TC5 are on my list, both will be FT versions (if available) and I'll take the time to build the cars the right way.

I think the RTR and or Race Rollers are a good idea, because more people are able to get involved in relatively short order. I can't forsee ALL Mfg going that way entirely. I think highly competitive classes like 1/10th scale buggy,truck, & sedan will still be available in kit form from those MFGs.

The growing popularity of larger classes like 1/8th scale I can see less kit forms if you look at the # of MFG now compared to MANY years ago, its quadroupled.

Excluding Tamiya, Traxxas was the first to focus of the RTR and has done VERY well in this market, considering they used to have a race team and were one of the first to develop a competitive racing truck. (who remembers the EAGLE, HAWK, and TRX1?). Traxxas focused on the first timer and the beginner. I would constantly pimp them to beginners because of the durability and low cost.

I can't see kits EVER going away. If all else, distributors will see more people going direct to the company if certain things become hard to find.

All we can do is wait and see. Communication with the MFG will be important. Keep watching press releases for info. Most companys will let it be known if major decisions are being made.



MOmo

helotaxi
09-02-2007, 10:28 AM
I would never buy a car I planned on racing as a roller. If you looked at one of my racers (except my TC3 which other than the parts that have broken is just a basic Team kit) there are fewer stock parts than aftermarket. The reasons for this are two.

1) Even the most upgraded roller will only have upgrades made by the manufacturer of the car or one of is sister companies. If those were the best components out the that would be great, but there are a ton of innovative people that make upgrades that are superior to those of the big makers. So, for example, if I wanted a Kawahara active diff on my V-one (and I did) I would have to tear the car apart and throw out the top of the line Kyosho diff (a pretty expensive piece of hardware in its own right) and swap in an equally pricey piece. If that was the only thing I wanted to replace, I could deal with it, but then throw in the hex head screws on the whole of the kit (yes, every screw is aftermarket) the Ti layshafts, the Five Stars chassis plate that wraps the Rx pack around the fuel tank to lower the CG as well as shedding weight and a host of other parts none of which were Kyosho and what was a weekend build for me would have spanned several weeks and wouldn't have ended up where it did.

2) Every time you insert and remove a screw or pop off a C-clip you loosen up the final assembly, alter the geometry and shorten the life of the part. If the parts in question are made of some hard, brittle plastic like most high-end racer parts are the situation is worse.

I know that there is a lot that goes into making a kit rather than selling the final assembly. You have to package the parts and quality control there is paramount. You have to write good instructions, or rather pay someone who doesn't know anything about the kit to do so (the less they know the better the instructions, actually: no assumptions about the knowledge of the builder and the directions cover everything). Finally, you have to staff the help lines with people intimately familiar with the kit and the build process. The process is cheaper for the company to just build the kit (teach a small group of guys how to build it with each specializing in a certain portion of hte build) and have them do it assembly line style. The CAD drawings with labels will suffice for instructions along with some basic how to install the electronics and engine/motor directions. You can skimp a bit on some of the hardware (most will never see it). You don't have to includes some extra screws "just in case."

My opinion, serious racers will not buy a pre-built racer. That said, the target market for 90+% of R/C, even the "ready to race" cars, isn't the serious racer.

Ball Racing
09-02-2007, 12:51 PM
I like to disassemble rtrs , because I see the car together, and can "rebuild" it easier than reading instructions..

Maybe a Kit should come with a fake assembled car so you can hands on look at it, if the instructions aren't clear enough...

I build plenty of kits, and scracth build Clod Busters to Scale..

If a hobby store today only carried kits,
they would not get the impulse buyers they do.

When you tell them it will take three days to build the car,
then the have to scout out a motor, radio servos, and tned pipe,

they shrug their shoulders and go to the other stores to get rid of their disposibable income..

And if die hard hobbiest don't care about those type of buyers,
they also should not get out of shape, ad feel the hobby is doomed because of RTR's and the people that buy them..

It takes MONEY for things to stay in business.
So if a Hobby store won't sell RTR's, and kit business falls off,
bye bye hobby shop..

It takes both for todays' society, and economy.

It's supposed to be about fun,
Some people aren't mechanically minded,
some don't have the tools or workspace.
Some can't paint, or have a place to paint,,,,
Some don't have fun doing it, even if they can..

BUT everybody has fun, racing & bashing...........
So "I" don't care if it was a kit or a RTR..


If you know the short comings of a RTR then you also have enough experience to know that to get good stuff your next purchase will be a kit or just the upgraded parts, and build it your self...

How can anyone's wants be more important than anothers?

Grant Tokumi
09-02-2007, 01:13 PM
Ball Racing,
Good points on the RTR market. What are your thoughts regarding the race roller market, where the target consumer are many of us on this board with already lots of experience in the hobby. You say that you personally would not mind taking apart an RTR, which I assume would also apply to race rollers. But seems that many here do not agree with racer rollers replacing kits completely. In other words, the target consumer of race rollers would rather purchase kits.

Ball Racing
09-02-2007, 04:48 PM
To me any car is a kit, it is still made up of screws, and bolts, and nuts, and parts:)

It takes me no longer to knock down a roller, and scope out what might need attention, than it does for me to build fom scratch, so I don't think it's a time or mechanical issue,

I think that some hobbyist feel it a slam to their pride that other people don't have to build fom the ground up, and don't appreciate what all is involved in a build.


The only main thing that gets on my nerves about a RTR,
is the kit comes with - say better shock towers, or aluminum braces, and universals instead of dog bones,
so if you want those parts you spend so much to upgrade.

AND the Grease they put in the diffs, it's s much harder to clean out than the silicone fluids we use.

But, if it's a race roller, and has ALL the good parts,
What really have you lost?
You may go back to re loctite everything,or change fluids,
but that is just weekly maintaince for "me"

The Track doesn't know if you build it from the ground up or not...

And if you are a hardcore racer you can build without instructions so you don't need the knowledge of building to "know" how it works...

When you build fom a kit,you are still building the same car as everbody else, so it's not like you are building a "one off" custom that no body else has..

"I" feel pride in building my scale monster trucks, because I cut and shaped the whole thing,and no one else has a truck just like mine.

But this is the way I do this hobby,
and feel free to respectfully disagree :)

rccardude04
09-03-2007, 04:32 AM
Ball, you make some good points. I understand that most hardcore guys tear their cars down a lot - probably more than they need to. I tend to build things with a lot more care than most factory builds seem to end up with. The last truck I built, my XXX-NT AD, never had the transmission off of it, in 2 seasons of racing. The thing was still smooth, bearings didn't explode, the diff was suprisingly smooth, never went through a spur, slipper pads, clutch bearings even. We regularly see transmissions in these things that explode at random. Stripped gears, gritty diffs only after a gallon or two, etc. And I'm pretty sure it's not because I'm *easy* on stuff. I had a picco .12 rear exhaust in it the first time around, and wore that engine out in a good 4 gallons or so. It would wheelie whenever you wanted to, and I liked to watch it wheelie. Especially down the straightaway while leading the pack. :) Second, I had a Thunder Tiger in there that made even more power. Even with a locked slipper, the thing would hold up.
Now, if I need to change the fluids in my *race roller* truck/buggy, it's definately a good idea to put new diff seals in the differentials, as well as using nitro spray to clean out the old oil, or worse - grease. Plus, you're putting an extra cycle on the screws that doesn't need to be there. And in one case locally, a couple stripped screws were found on an 8ight-T roller while doing some simple radio setup. That had to be replaced as well.
If they followed quality control and put the right fluids in there, it wouldn't be so bad. But right now, I don't trust the factory to put together the car that I'll be trusting a points series race to without tearing it apart and checking everything over.
-Eric

mattyb13
09-03-2007, 12:05 PM
This thread is very interesting to me. I agree with both sides of the argument. Here is my .02.
I bought my first Nitro this summer as an RTR. It had some probs but basically it was in good order out of the box. I have found numerous things that were a little off and made tons of upgrades to it and had a blast doing it. BUT, thats the polar opposite of building my buggy as a kit! I could have bought the MUCH more expensive "pro" kit and all spent all the $ on all the parts individually, or I can buy all the upgrade parts after the fact for my more affordable RTR kit. Maybe I didnt buy a kit up front and build it. I was new and wanted to get going and have some fun. I am however upgrading and modifying it now that I understand the hobby and the buggy more. To me its 6 of 1 or 1/2 dozen of the other for the manufactures from a dollars and cents side of it. I dont see it as lazy, I see it as a matter of perspective really. Most of us buy our real cars and trucks stock from the dealer and then upgrade and customize to our liking and needs. I cant imagine buying my suv as a kit from the dealer! People who are truly "new" to this hobby. Nitro specifically can get intimidated to the point of not participating by all the complexities of the hobby. NONE of us want that to happen! Hence, RTR's are critical to the hobby as the ultimate goal is to invite more people into the sport by making it easier and more fun. Additionally, many people (myself included) are hindered by their environment, meaning there are not many other enthusiasts around to help or learn from. Thats one mroe argument for RTR kits. Badically, RTR's are the "hook" in my opinion that gets people into the hobby and excited and from there they can decide where they want to go with it. Yes, the top competitors and enthusiasts would rather build their RC from the kit level, and individually buy all the parts that suit them. Thats completely legit and valid, but I see that as a much narrower bandwidth of people than those that really want to have fun and maybe "try" racing casually. I think its important to keep in mind also that this hobby is not cheap! Its expensive and making a it a little more affordable (rtr kits) also makes it more inviting to the new comer. We all take from our disposable income to afford this sport. Raw kits and piecemeal parts are so MUCH more expensive than an rtr kit. I would like to build my own buggy, sometime in the future I think I will. For now, my rtr has been upgraded to where I like it and it is pretty competitive locally. Yes, I have spent plenty. My RTR has been a killer learning tool and I appreciate it for that. I now know where and how to spend my money upgrading. One thing I think would be interesting is if manufacturers offered the RTR kits in a completely unassembled version. I.E. motor, radio, everything needed to get rolling is included but must be assembled. That for sure would educate the new comer to the sport and keep it a little simpler and hopefully the price down. However, if everything goes RTR then that would over homogenize the hobby and be bad from a competitive and innovation standpoint.
I am sure this has all been covered but thats my take on it. See you guys at the track. Thanks for reading.

Ball Racing
09-03-2007, 12:46 PM
But right now, I don't trust the factory to put together the car that I'll be trusting a points series race to without tearing it apart and checking everything over.
-Eric

Good Point,
But also to point out that anyone looking to win the championship series, isn't going to "not" pull down the car and have a look see anyway..
Because of us "racers" are looking for every little advantage, and not one of us yet has settled for "out of the box"

So I just don't have a hard time with it yet. :)

Grant Tokumi
09-03-2007, 01:12 PM
But right now, I don't trust the factory to put together the car that I'll be trusting a points series race to without tearing it apart and checking everything over.
-Eric
Given enough time, I would hope assembly procedures becomes precise enough and QA/QC good enough where the "been there done that" racer CAN trust and even rely on the factory to put together the car that I'll be trusting a points series race without tearing it apart. Technology is definitely here where when used correctly, automation can be more reliable than manual assembly of a product, don't you think? Example, the keyboard you are typing on, the television sitting next to it, your digital camera.

Turd Ferguson
09-03-2007, 02:25 PM
It's kind of like when I was building my own computers. I started out with a prebuilt computer, and realized as I learned more and more that I could build my own computer with separate parts that I selected myself to suit my needs.
I just got into RC this summer with a Raze, I learned alot from that car and have had the entired thing disassmbled at one point or another, and fined tuned it to my liking. With that experience I definitely want my next buggy to be a kit so I can assemble it and get everything right the first time.:)

jacsac
09-05-2007, 11:32 PM
One of the things I don't like about race rollers is that when they build it, is the builder sitting there with a dremel, fine grit sandpaper, and exacto taking off every burr and making sure the left arm is equally free as the right? I don't want someone getting paid to produce quantity messing with my quality. Do they use green slime to build the shocks? Get what I am saying? If a bolt is threaded slightly loose I know where the thread lock is.


Some of the posters on here aren't understanding the actual thread. Race roller is not a Revo or any other Traxxas vehicle. It is a full blown top 5 at the worlds car or of that nature. It is fine for them to produce a roller so long as there is a kit. You can't really say to let your wallet do the talking though. Are you going to settle on a lesser car to make a statement because the 8ight-t is only roller?


RTR is a wonderful thing for the hobby but not the sport.